[Arisbe] prestige and anonymity

[Jon Awbrey]

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JA = Jon Awbrey
TG = Tom Gollier

JA: when needing to stay a part of the group causes
    one to distort his or her perceptions, and to do
    things that he or she would once have considered
    reprehensible.

TG: Commentators attribute this to a certain "distancing" (from reality,
    their own humanity, etc.) that members of such groups are able to
    accomplish. But Peirce, I think, can come to our assistance here.
    For with him we can zero in on:

TG: 1. The reality being distanced from, namely Secondness,

TG: 2. The means used to accomplish that distancing, namely the
       Thirdness (without Secondness) of the group's semantics
       (with or without the abuses of euphemisms, double-talk,
       and such as that),

TG: and this exactness, in turn, provides a model applicable
    to all groups, not just the worst. For all group semantics,
    the inter-relationships of the categories employed, produce
    a distancing from Secondness.  Even when the group possesses
    the power to apply its antecedents, it remains distant from
    those who suffer their consequents.

TG: What I find interesting from our own experiences is the way groups tend to
    betray themselves when confronted with something that does not fit their
    semantic model.  For rather than rising to the challenge and attempting
    to extend their semantics to incorporate this conflicting reality, they
    retreat into that semantics, demanding more distance in the form of a
    more rigorous "consistency" and the exclusion of any and all that does
    not fit.  Eventually, we see these groups taking actions which make
    absolutely no sense with regard to the  realities they confront, but
    which make perfect sense within their increasingly sterile semantics.

TG: The only problem is how long the self-destruction can take.
    Secondness doesn't oppose such semantics, or even the actions
    taken. It more lies in wait.

Tom,

What you say here makes a lot of sense.  I was discussing these issues
yesterday with someone who said that there is some interesting current
research in developmental psych that has to do with the stage at which
children develop a "reflective capacity" or an "intentional stance" --
the first stage at which one can see the possibility of being deceived.

In wrestling with trying to understand the bizarre phenomena that I saw in
Wikipedia, I have been thinking in terms of con games and totalitarianism.
Essayed some groping thoughts here:

http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=7915
http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=8151

Jon

> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Jon Awbrey <jawbrey at att.net>
> >
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> >
> > Tom Gollier wrote:
> > >
> > > Jon,
> > >
> > >    The recent revival of interest in Hannah Arendt got me looking
> > > at *Eichmann in Jerusalem*, the "banality of evil", and wondering
> > > how many bureaucrats today might be convicted of crimes  similar
> > > (in kind if not quantity) today.  But I think you hit a key point
> > > in all this when you say:
> > >
> > > > it's  one where being in the club -- the "cabal" -- and carrying
> > > > the club does not depend  on much of anything but the readiness
> > > > to defend it, right or wrong.
> > >
> > > There's a huge difference between organizations that are concerned
> > > with accomplishing specific objectives (there are a few still out
> > > there, I think) and organizations whose overriding objective
> > > is their own survival or enhancment. That subtle change in
> > > orientation changes, or should I say "ruins", everything.
> > >
> > > Tom
> >
> > yes, the critical transition point at which that
> > "subtle change in orientation" occurs is exactly
> > the thing i've been trying to come to grips with.
> > the best that i can tell, an important factor in
> > the changeover is the point when needing to stay
> > a part of the group causes one to distort his or
> > her perceptions, and to do things that he or she
> > would once have considered reprehensible.  it is
> > always hard to realize the power of the need for
> > affiliation until one sees its effects occurring
> > time and time again, in otherwise decent people.
> >
> > jon

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